In regards to how boys treat girls playing Bantam hockey, I can only comment on my daughter's experience last year -- it absolutely positively sucked. The boys, except for maybe 3 or 4, treated her with absolutely no respect whatsoever. It was horrible!!! How she put up with it for the entire year is a testament to her love of the sport. The truth be known, I think many were jealous that she made the Bantam AA team the prior year when many of them did not. One of them would even take major runs at her in practice with intent to injure her. I never want her to experience that again.

That said, I know it is not that way with most other teams that I have seen who have girls on the roster. I see many of the boy players on those teams conversing with the girl players and treating them like a valuable member of their team, as it is supposed to be, both on and off the ice. I guess it really depends on the leadership of the team. The team will generally follow the attitudes of those leaders. The leaders of my daughter's team obviously had a score to settle with her. I don't know how else to explain the treatment that she received by them.

As for the coach possibly giving her special treatment -- that absolutely was not the case. The coach did not treat her any differently from any other member of the team, so that can not be used as an excuse for the poor treatment. So unlike the previous responders to your question, I know first hand that girls playing with Bantam aged boys (and above) is not always smooth sailing.

Maybe the reason for the different treatment at the Bantam Level could be because that seems to be the time (Bantam) that players that have played with different organizations decide to come back to their home organizations. They haven't played with these girls for a couple years and feel they have to make a statement. Not sure if that is true, but we have some playeres that have returned to our organization after playing elsewhere and they were "leaders" on the other teams. They have come back because they are in our district for High School and apparently want to play when it comes to High School hockey. They played with my daughter in the past, but I don't think their coaches were as willing to have girls on their team. Just my opinion.
By the way...Very good advice Red Wings Guy and Catsdad! Hockeyisforme...I hope our first year of Bantam is not as frustrating as yours was for you and your daughter. Hang in there!

Both of my daughters have always played on female leagues. Yes we are lucky that we have that option. Both of my daughters are goalies. My 14 year old is out this year due to surgery. She has played defense and they went into net the second year she played because a goalie was needed. This year would have been her 5th year playing.
My 10 year old has played in net since the age of 5. She chose to be the goalie and has gone on to play provincials 3 years in a row ( two bronze medals and a silver ). This year she is playing Atom A.

My daughters have chosen to not play with boys. My youngest has tried it and even made the boys AAA team and refused to play because of it. If the girls only played with girls there would never be a need to play with boys. (my opinion)
Have anyone asked if girls get the option of playing with boys how come the boys don't get the option of playing with the girls?

Is anyone going to the Kitchener Aud to watch the Canada vs USA game tonight?

It will also be broadcast on TSN
CANADA - USA
Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 | 7:30 pm ET
LIVE on TSN

Girls playing boys hockey is a complicated situation without a simple clear cut answer-cept for considerations of debate on the following.

Contact:

My son has played Canadian A1 Hockey thru to Minor Peewee AA with girls on his repsective roster. The girls that played on his AA team played A1 hockey prior...all the way thru from 8A1 to 10A1 on differetn teams and then at AA both of the girls made the respective Minor PeeWee AA roster with my son and 12 other male skaters and 2 male goalies.

Both these girls played Defense last year in AA-and both were equal skaters and could move the puck as well as the boys-be it thru the neutral ice-find a passing or skating lane etc et etc.

But that is where the equal footing with the boys ended-tru there were some boys that played with as much or as little physicalness of the girls on the roster-and had less skating abilities overall then the girls when it came to playing hockey-but they were also not judged by the same criteria and a decided and obvious double standard exists as to what is/was expected of the boys vs the girls from the coaching staf became obvious after less then half a dozen league games into the schedule.

Thru the last year of AA play-the girls were not benched once..for lack of physical play-for bailing out of havingto take a hit vs throwing the uck away to not have to take the hit-time and time again as the pace of a game dependent on who the opponent was-dictated an increase in the other team taking the body on our team-both girls were many times over unwilling to pay the price of taking the hit to finish the play..ie getting the puck out and up to the winger on a breakout of our own end-many times they would just throw the puck away-right up the middle of the ice in their own end if need be-they could not clear the front of the net of opposition players who were boys vying for offensive positioning in front of the goalie to set up the screen or tip in from the point shot-they could not win the battle for the puck along the boards more often then not-especially in odd man situations-ie penalty kill-they could not reach the shot of the opposition net from a flat footed position while playing D in the offensive zone-and forget about using the body for body checking purposes...less it was one of the smaller opposition players the best they could do was squeeze a kid out along the boards...very often on a loose puck it would be ovserved by other parents in the stands how they let the other teams players take the puck and then try to take it from them with a stick check even if they were first to the puck and playing it...and therefore putting themselves in a position to have to sacrifice their bodies and take the hit instead.

And the thing is...some of the boys-were sat at times for not being physical enough who made the roster...and thsoe who went to the tryouts who were IMO deserved of a second look got cut BECAUSE THEY WERE BOYS VS GIRLS and DID NOT display enough aggressive play in the tryouts.

At one point this double standard was brought up with the coaches by a couple of the parents durning evaluation mid way thru the season...and it was commented that the girls "are not expected to hit-long as they try".."the girls are not expected to win the boards or the battle infront of the net...long as they try...ditto the shot from the point actually being hard and getting to the net flat footed-etc etc etc...this is a constant and pervasive attitude I have seen when girls play on boys hockey teams-and I havew a girl playing boys mixed hockey in the atom division myself...who once hitting starts...will not play mixed hockey and will move to girls hockey only...she plays mixed hockey now because their are NO other girls from her grade in school playing on her community hockey team but there are more then a couple boys so she is comfortable playing with "kids" she knows...but she wants to play girls hockey at 10...which next year she will be doing...making the transition an entire year before hitting is allowed in our province.

FWIW...the boys on my sons hockey team think the girls are skilled players....are aware that there is a double standard...won't hit the girls in tryouts-my son won't even hit a girl if he can help it on another team for that matter-and he is a mack truck when it comes to playing the body..when asked why he dosen't take the body on the girls but plays the puck...he says..."Dad...i don't hit girls"...its funny but we have a social code of conduct....where boys are brought up to respectr the feminity of girls and yet in contact sports such as hockey where girls decide to play with the boys...they are put in an environment that runs contrary to what they are taught off the ice-and to drive their female counterparts into next week if it means seperating them from the puck and eliminating them from the play-maybe the double standard we see in the expectations and at times the treatment of girls on a hockey bench vs the boys...starts as a societal issue before it even becomes a sports related one...is does the sports double standard just carry over to make it a societal one.

I have played hockey-and coached hockey...both at high levels-and I have coahced girls on my hockey teams-and even as much as tried to use a blanket appraoch of dealing with the gender issues the same...I could not because it is impossible.

Like the coaches on my sons AA team last year..I was never as vocal in my criticsm with them...the coaches on my sons team only once read one of the girls the riot act after bailing out of taking a hit and setting up their defence partner with not one but two suicide passes on the same play as she bailed on the play and threw a slow rolling pass over my son on the other side of the point...allowing the speeding forward to not have to slow up and just steam roll my boy...and it was a playoff game do or die..and my kid did not bail...he took the hit both times to make the pass out of his own end...from the taking a shower issue to sharing the same dressing room-how would the girls feel if the boys were allowed to come into the girls change room if they were in a state of various undress to change into gear and the boys were allowed to comem in to join the girls..."when they felt comfortable?"...my son started pubetry very early-I have 12yr old girls contacting him constantly-he could conduct a class on the birds and bees right now let alone attend one-tell me why as the boys hit pubetry and the ance breaks out and they smell like a brothel after a practise or game...why they should have to shower in a bailing suite to keep the girls issues happy or not be able to take a shower at all?

There is no defence for this that makes any sense....at 11yrs of age the girls playing boys hockey-nonsense should stop...I hear all the old usual arguements from some of the girls parents that they need their daughrers to play boys hockey because tghe boys will push their hockey and the girls hockey won't challenge their gifted offsprings enough-all pure and unadulterated bullsheet...cuz like some of the other posters on this thread...I have seen girls only teams in the same age group...or even on age group up where they can try out as underagers if need be...and the girls hockey is ultra competitive...more reliance on skill and skating and smarts...and take out the hack and chop stuff that goes with yes even girls non contact hockey...sometimes the puck movement and flow of their games because o fit...can be ...not always but sometimes can often be...more entertaining to watch.

And you always hear the double standards by the girls moms especially-more so then their dads who probably think their wives motives for having their daughters play boy shockey may be well intended by misplaced if not outright loony to begin with....you always hear the double standards...if a boy player dominat4es a girl play..."well...he's beating a girl you know...big deal"...and then if the kid is not as successfull you hear...very often you can hear either directly or taccidly..."look at that...he's getting beat by a girl!"...the boys just cant win...where it seems...the girls just can't fail.

Personally I have seen enough of the seperate agenda's many parents of girls playing boys hockey have...who's only means is to exploit the boys hockey system as far as they can in an attempt to fast track their daughters to a private high school or NCAA girls hockey scholarship-and boys that would stay within communiy based AA programs and maybe go to Junior A or B at some point if their lucky and skilled enough down the road-miss an opportunity to play and develop because of a well meaning or non well meaning over involved hockey mom with stars in her eyes who's kid if the truth be known and did not have the parent speaking for them would prefer to be in girls hockey vs boys anyways.


We've come to far with this equal rights stuff when we start IMO crossing gender lines to the point of lunacy-we can put a man and a woman pitted against each other in the ****pit of a jet fighter-but put them into hand to hand combat-to fight to the finish both recieving the same amount and type of training and one would call the in the human rights police in a hurry-along with the sanity gatekeepers as well.

Why in sports we can willingly watch parents of 80lb girls send their young daughers out to take open ice hits or be driven into end boards as hard as concrete by 120 to 140lb boys-is beyond me..if it happenned in the school yard-the police would be called as would expulsion for the boys be invovled.

Makes no sense...we might as well open up boxing as a co-ed sport as well...girls allowed to wrestle boys so they can gain confidence with body image/contact?...what pure pot smoking thru pubetry BS this is to...what about the physchological harm done to the male child in the same weight category who is maturation wise not high in pubetry yet as a slow bloomer-and perhaps at a disadvantage to a girl who often hit their cylcles earlier by comparison...what about the emotonal and self esteem damage done to the male child who draws is unfortunate enough to lose to a girl?

It is really a testament to how far the wheels have fallen off the horsecart trying to get the goods to market-by the farmers who knew how to plant crops-could't saddle a horse let alone drive a wagon pulling them.

To many bleeding hearts in positions of influence-supporting issues because all to often to many peple go around claiming "this is unfair" and "victim status" based on gender-in areas where infact gender differences and inequality because of those differences will always exist.

Its the indifference of those that complaing about the double standards the girls enjoy in the sport of hockey-but when it comes time to speak up and say nothing...that perhaps is just as disturbing...because being politically correct and making no waves in the sport of hockey-is important so as not to carry repucussions for your sons participation in play.

I will conclude by saying...the final epitomy of the double standard with girs playing boys hockey is they enjoy the best of both worlds even in the event of failure.

Cuz if they don't make boys AA hockey...they can still go tryout of the boys.


Whens the last time you saw a boy being given the same?..not even field hockey is it allowed.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/oct/16/local/me-37256

Girls should play girls hockey once contact starts-becaues its when the berries get hairy-boys know that the thing below has more then one purpose-and for all the reasons amply stated above.

End of story.

What a pile of... well I'm not allowed to use that type of language on this forum.

I see two simple problems with your post.

First, you try to extrapolate a poor girls placement situation (by your definition - more on that later) out to girls playing boys hockey in general.

Second, bag the sexist political crud. Not needed here.

Let's start with your analysis of the girls in question. While you talk about the anectdotal situations of physical play, it is your opinion that these 2 players overall contribution to the team is less. If you wouldn't mind providing their plus/minus ranking amongst defencemen on their team, then I can buy your argument as to why they were poor choices for the team. Not being the best at physical play is not necessarily a reason to exclude a player from a team. It is the whole package, sir and most hockey folks, if forced to use one statistical measure of a player will use plus/minus (over a long period of games).

Another point about physical play, in my experience watching girls play at the Peewee (12U) level, the girls I see play on this side of the border are bigger than their male counterparts and can generally hold their own. I know my D was the tallest and (when she did power skating with her team in skaters duds - she's a goalie) the fastest player on her Peewee team (a long time ago). If a player (male or female) is too small to physically keep up with a level of play, they should not be selected for a team.

So, I suggest that your problem is that your coaches are not selecting hockey player for the team based upon overall skills (considering the coaches' different evaluation criteria you mentioned). That, to me is sexist. If a player (male or female) cannot contribute equally in their role (not everyone has to be an enforcer) to the net offense (plus/minus) of a team, they should be playing at a lower level.

But to say that because YOUR team took on unqualified players because YOUR coaching staff held players to a different standard that Girls shouldn't play Boys hockey, it just makes it TOO easy to point out your logically flawed thinking which is so full of the prejudices that you cannot see in yourself (despite your comments about having a daughter playing) that I am offended as a parent of a girl playing hockey.

Personally, I've had the pleasure of watching a couple of girls player over the years who have skated with the boys at the Bantam AAA level who are on the US 18U National Team that beat your Canadian National 18U Team. I hate to drag the Nationalistic stuff into this, but perhaps a few more of your Canadian girls could benefit from playing boys hockey, if they can figure out which level of team to put them on.

To the regulars out there, I'm sorry that I've come off harsh - not my normal nature, but for this newbie to come into this girls forum and post such trash, it just asks for it.

SHAWSHANK:

I have read your entire post and I disagree with your post whole heartedly.

I am sorry that the coach of your son's team has decided to impose two standards of play for his players based on gender. It does a disservice to the entire team and only cause a rift between teammates. Similar to a coach that allows certain players carte blanch in their lack of discipline, while hlding other players to a higher standard of discipline on and off the ice.

I do not believe that your experience is the norm with regards to the girls on a boys team and from my personal experience it is usually quite the opposite. From the girls that I have observed playing at the highest level of "boys" hockey, it is not acceptable for them to be simply an equal to their male counter parts, they must be better to be treated as an equal.

As metioned by "Redwing" there are several girls on the u!8 USA team that have come from the boys AAA side of the game, and I have personally seen each of them play in that setting. Every one of them without a doubt, were the top player on their boys team. Let me give you a rundown of each player.

Megan Bozek-Team Illinois PeeWee Major AAA. Was the top Defenseman on the team as well as the biggest. Had a rocket of a shot at 12 and knew how to use it.

Madison Packer-Honeybaked Bantam Minor AAA, best skater on the team, took a beating in front of the net to place herself in scoring position, every shift. Was the meanest player on the team and was not afraid to get in the corners, take and give a hit.

Brianna Decker-Wisconsin Bantam Minor AAA, Solid player with great hockey sense. Not afraid to give or take a check. Very strong on her skates

Amanda Kessel-Madison Capitols Bantam Major AAA. One of the smallest players on the team also one of the fastest. Lead her team in points at the 2006 Tier I national tournament. The team finished 5th in the Nation. I saw her lay out a 6 ft player along the boards in the District playoffs against the Chicago Mission. Not afraid to battle along the boards for the puck. Played on both the Power Play and Penalty Kill. If there was a battle along the boards in the defensive zone, she would win the battle and clear the puck 90% of the time,

Corrine Boyle- Chicago Chill Bantam Major AAA, Top goalie on every AAA team she played for.

Alex Rigsby-Milwaukee Admirals Midget Minor AAA. Top golaie on the team. Played for the Chicago Mission Bantam Major AAA and attended the 2007 National Tournament. Prior to that payed up with 91 age group AAA as a 92.

Kendal Coyne-Chicago Mission Peewee Minor AAA-phenoinal player wth incredible speed. smallest player on the team, yet was a leadng scorer for the team.

There are many other female players that have played Boys hockey at the highest level and without a doubt each of them were/are one of the top players for their teams.

With regards to players on other teams giving them a "pass" as a girl opponent, nothing could be further from the truth. In the many years that I have watched thses girls play and others, my daughter included, they were not only treated the same as the male players, at times they were singled out for over aggressive play from their opponent, with the parents of the other team rooting their boys to take the girl "out".

Not one of these girls asked or expected different treatment than their male teammates from either their coach, their teammates, or the opponents. Each of these girls chose to play boys AAA hockey, because it was the level that was best suited for their skills, nothing more, nothing less.

To also note, there are several girls from the Canadian side that have also played at the highest level of boys hockey. One of special note is one of the goalies that has been in your national system, Szabados. First female to be invited to the WHL try outs, first female to play in the WHL, Top goalie on a Junior A Alberta Tier II team.

Players should play at the level that best suits their skill level regardless of whether they wear a jill or a jock. If the femlae players on your son's team can not perform at the same level of their male counterparts then they should not play at that level. However, remember that every player has a role on a team and not all players, male or female, are expected to be grinders, some are expected to be scorers, some are expected to be enforcers, some are grinders, and some are third line relief.

quote:

Originally posted by shawshank:


...Whens the last time you saw a boy being given the same?..not even field hockey is it allowed...



End of story.

Actually if memory serves me right, there was a boy who asked to play and was granted the opportunity to play Field Hockey as long as he wore the required uniform (a skirt) which he did.

Actually, according to this article, there are several boys who play for their high school field hockey teams.
http://www.boston.com/sports/schools/articles/2006/11/1...right_wrong_reasons/