I see what you are saying but the tourney seeding will never be completely fair with one division being the 1,3,5,7,9, seed and the other being the 2,4,6,8,10 seed. You can have one team dominate their division and be the 1 seed and then the 3 seed is a 500 team in the other division you have 3 teams that are equal and the 500 team from that division would be a 6 seed. The seeding only is true if it is a 8-10 team division where everyone plays every one else.

On the travel issue I can see this being an issue if the teams are 6-7 hours away. In this case all 10 of the teams are in a 4- 4 1/2 hour drive. Columbus to Evansville would be the longest.the way it is set up now the longest would be Dayton to Evansville at about 3 1/2 hours. I dont think 1 hour would make or break any team participation. If travel is the major concern then have the 2 cinci teams and the 3 columbus teams together and the 3 indy teams with Dayton and evansville.

I was just trying to come up with a way that would give incentive for first year teams and "isolated" teams a chance to win a divisonal title and encourage large orgs to have a major and minor teams that would compete with similar teams. This will in the long run keep more teams in the league.

The statement you made about scheduling other games outside you division and not worying about how you do in the divison scares me. Why would a team that is in a division as the lone first year team not drop from the league schedule all of the first year teams from the buckeye and cleveland and a few second year teams and drop out of the league. Why pay the league fee and tourney fee if they are set up not to at least have a chance to compete?

At the midget 18A level there is on divison with Louisville KY- Huntington WV in one division and the other is Findlay, Cinci, Dayton, Butler County, and Troy. I would guess all but Findlay is closer to Huntington than Louisville??

A few counterpoints:

You start off by saying, "The bottom line is that we have 3 playing levels; AA, A & B. Teams don't apply to play in A-major, A-minor, etc, etc."

While that is true, teams also know that they are signing up to play "travel" hockey, yet all of your "geographic" rationales are skewed toward minimizing the travel. I am all for minimizing the travel, but not at the expense of competitiveness and quality games.

There are no 5-6 hour drives in the changes WingsRule suggested.

You have two teams from the same association in the same division, violating exception (2). So really what you are saying is that WingsRule's changes would cause "extreme" travel distances, thus the exception to exception (2). Respectfully, travel between Ohio and Indiana in travel hockey is not extreme -- if it were, how do we justify Indy-1 in the Hoosier Division with three Columbus teams and a Cincinnati team? When a Texas team played in the Cincy regional Silver Stick last year, or a Washington (State of) team played in the Dayton SS regional a couple years ago -- now that is extreme!!!

The current seeding system is skewed, with Bluegrass getting higher seeds than deserved. Accept my guess above as to the outcome of the season and walk through the seedings and you will see what I mean (Cincy-95 with a 3 seed? over Indy-1, CCYHA-94, Cardinal-94 and CCYHA-95, none of which they will have even played???) So saying that it will mess up end of season seedings doesn't really explain the reluctance. (And that can be fixed anyway).

Stating that the teams can play each other even if they are not in the same divisions undercuts your "too far to travel" argument, because they apparently are going to travel the distance anyway to play non-league games. Of course, your response is "But that would be by their choice." So, isn't your real concern that parents will complain that they are being forced to travel too far for league games? I respect your willingness to try to be considerate, but aren't we setting aside competitiveness for convenience? And isn't that what house hockey is for? -- less competitive, but far more convenient.

Troll you make a lot of very good points that made me think!!!!

A few years ago my son played at the mite B level with teams from, Bloomington IN, Indy, Columbus, Cinci, Huntington WV. THIS WAS MITE B with Huntington driving 4-8 hours for each of their games. Now the leauge is saying that 4-5 hour dives are to much for a AA TEAM.

The Buckeye league needs to decide if it wants to develop as a premier league or an option to a house league. If it wants to be an option to a house league then have a buckeye leauge, a Hoosier leauge, Bluegrass league and be a travel house leauge.

If it wants to develop as a premier leauge then it has to make the best competitive match ups if that oppertunity is there.

Look at the web site MyHockey.com and see where the Buckeye stacks up against other leagues. At the squirt level in the MID WEST they ranked 180 teams, the first BUCKEYE team was #47 with only 3 in the top 100 and then 9 in the last 20 between 160 and 180.

The Northern Illinois League breaks their best teams in the elite division and the bubble teams in the Gold division and weaker teams in the silver division and they are ranked diferently because of the level of compitition.

I know it is not an exact science, but if you have multiple people commenting the same way and a history of players on the teams you are placing then a little judgment can be used.

I agree with alot of what you two guys are saying. But, for now anyway...it is only two guys beating this drum.

It would be great to conduct a comprehensive poll to see how every family in the Squirt AA division feels about this topic...potentially more competitive games vs. less travel. Those of us that follow these message boards are a bit more "into" youth hockey than others. Therefore, we're the ones willing to travel the extra 100 miles each way to play a 3-2 game versus a 6-1 game (myself included). I suspect that many others don't feel the same, especially those with 2 or more kids playing hockey and other winter sports. Just thinking out loud here...

Len, you have a thankless job, but you do it well. I've always found you to be a reasonable person, and I suspect that if a proposed change makes perfect sense, you'll make the change.

I hate to wish the remaining few days of summer away, but man...let's get these games started, eh?

Seems strange in the Squirt A (single A) that Dayton is not in the division with Findlay, Troy Ohio and Columbus Ohio, but rather in a division with Cincy and Indiana and N. KY teams.....seems the drive time would be much better in the other division for Dayton A.

For AA I couldnt agree more with the Elite, Gold, Silver concept. Buckeye has made the term AA into an age bracket\size of association formula....instead of the top playing level for teams in our geography. Why lump Evansville and some other program who has 1 travel team and maybe 20 kids trying out into the same division as the very top Cincy Squirt travel team, and the top Columbus and Indy teams?

Makes a lot more sense to have '95 minor teams grouped together with smaller programs and let the truly top teams compete amongst themselves.

I would think the best want to play against the best a lot more than they want to shorten their drive times down an hour or two.

A top tier Squirt division of Cincy-1, Columbus-1, Indy Checkers, Dayton with anybody else who wants to compete with the very best maximizes the experience for all.....better for the strongest and better for the teams that arent as strong to be playing among their peers...peers defined as talent and not some age\assoc size formula that leaves a LOT to be desired.

Quote from breakout:

I agree with alot of what you two guys are saying. But, for now anyway...it is only two guys beating this drum.
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Looks like the duo drums have doubled to a four drum band.

Any others out there that agree with this and would like to "Drum" in???

quote:

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Originally posted by breakout:
I agree with alot of what you two guys are saying. But, for now anyway...it is only two guys beating this drum.

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If it is just a vocal minority, then I absolutely agree with you. . . but I think most parents who invest the time and money into travel at a AA level, tend to be of like mind.

quote:

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Those of us that follow these message boards are a bit more "into" youth hockey than others. Therefore, we're the ones willing to travel the extra 100 miles each way to play a 3-2 game versus a 6-1 game (myself included).

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You may be correct that we are just more into it, and thus a more vocal minority, I just don't know.

quote:

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Len, you have a thankless job, but you do it well. I've always found you to be a reasonable person, and I suspect that if a proposed change makes perfect sense, you'll make the change.

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I hope none of this is being viewed as an attack on Len or a criticism of him personally. (the part about it "making too much sense" was a joke -- you needed to note the voice inflection) That's certainly not my intent. As a voluteer he seems to be trying to placate those who complain about too much travel, I empathize with his "rock and a hard place" position and if they are the majority, then he is absolutely doing the right thing. Honestly, however, I just don't think that they are the majority at a AA level.

I second everything Troll stated!!!!!!!!!

Len is a great person and is trying to please a great many people.

We are just trying to give more input than could be heard and acted on in an 1-2 hour board meeting or confrence call. this is a great way for the leauge to get input on the leauge. I would suggest the league announce that this forum exists at the scheduling meeting to gain input through out the season from a varity of people.

Let all do what we can to make the BTHL the best it can be!!!